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Talk:Clone Conspiracy Vol 1 4
Ned Leeds Now that Ned Leeds has appeared independently of the villains, can we acknowledge the New U Jack O'Lantern is Levins and Hobgoblin is Macendale? Monolith616 (talk) 20:41, January 19, 2017 (UTC) :No. Their identity wasn't confirmed yet. Macendale isn't (or wasn't) the only Hobgoblin dead, and Levins isn't (or wasn't) the only Jack O'Lantern dead either. :--The Many-Angled One (talk) 21:03, January 19, 2017 (UTC) ::Your rationale back in #2 was because you were insisting Leeds was the resurrected Hobgoblin, so Macendale had to be the Jack. Now we know Leeds is not the Hobgoblin. At this point, it's unrealistic to assume they're anyone else. ::Other than Macendale, the remaining dead Hobgoblins are brainwashed body doubles of Kingsley. Jackal's emotional blackmail plan against Parker benefits nothing from using them. And with Ned, we have evidence that people who died under the Winkler process believing they were Hobgoblin are coming back with their minds clear, and therefore would not be dressing as Hobgoblin. Macendale is the obvious choice for Hobgoblin. All other choices are statistically insignificant. ::Other than Levins and Macendale, the remaining dead Jack O'Lanterns either never met Spider-Man, were only reported dead by the insane Venom 's Jack, or both. If Macendale is Hobgoblin, that leaves Levins. Levins may not be a major Spider-Man villain, but he died in front of Parker, which fit the emotional blackmail theme Jackal is using against him. Levins is the obvious choice for Jack O'Lantern. All other choices are statistically insignificant. ::All evidence points to this conclusion. There's no reason to hold out for more. ::Monolith616 (talk) 21:27, January 19, 2017 (UTC) :::So go ahead, do it. :::--The Many-Angled One (talk) 21:40, January 19, 2017 (UTC) ::::Wait wait what? I didn't see this. Come on guys Macendale isn't Hobgoblin. If anything he's Jack O'Lantern. Seriously? ::::Ben 1,000,911 (talk) 22:54, January 19, 2017 (UTC) :::::I laid out an actual argument above. Do you have a response other than "What? Dude! Seriously?" :::::Monolith616 (talk) 22:57, January 19, 2017 (UTC) ::::::Yup. I just don't have a lot of time so I'll be brief. Sorry if I leave again. basically Macendale died in the Hobgoblin outfit you see on his page, not a classic orange one. And he was Jack O'Lantern first. So since he isn't high-tech, it makes the most sense that he's Jack. I think Daniel Kingsley is Hobgoblin. He wasn't brainwahsed by his bro, he acted on his own accord. His death was enough to bring Roderick back into the game in fact. Plus he's drawn similarly in V4 #23 to the way his bro was in Danger Zone. But the bottom line is nobody has been confirmed so we can't edit the pages yet just because we're speculating probable cause. ::::::Ben 1,000,911 (talk) 23:03, January 19, 2017 (UTC) ::::::I guess Jack could be Levins too. But it isn't Macendale. And since there's discretion, not to mention NO PROOF, we can't put anyone's name down for Hobgoblin, Jack O'Lantern, or Mysterio (he's the other unnamed one). ::::::Ben 1,000,911 (talk) 23:07, January 19, 2017 (UTC) :::::::Your argument for Macendale is flawed. Jackal is not restoring the original dead bodies, he's cloning them: growing new bodies from the ground up using genetic material. Cybernetics are not encoded in genetic material. Macendale would no longer have his cyborg parts after his resurrection, for the same reason Ben no longer had dyed blonde hair. Cosmetic changes are not part of your DNA. :::::::Daniel Kingsley doesn't fit the Jackal's description of his resurrected villains. They were Spider-Man's enemies, those he fought and those he failed to save. Daniel was never Spider-Man's enemy. He never fought Spider-Man as the Hobgoblin. Parker may not even know Daniel ever assumed the identity, much less died. The Hobgoblin being Daniel instead of Macendale, who was Spidey's ongoing foe AS Hobgoblin for nearly 10 years and killed in a case he was directly involved with, doesn't fit the facts. :::::::Yeah, for all we know, it might be Cable under that mask. But characters aren't always going to get little floating captions identifying them. If there's true ambiguity, fine. I'm not here arguing about which Mysterio that is. But considering the evidence and logically thinking things through leads to only one realistic conclusion for the Goblins and Jack. :::::::Monolith616 (talk) 02:19, January 20, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::Except there's at least more than one possible logical conclusion. As long as there's more than one we cannot be certain of anything. Because you think it's x and I think it's y we can't have a definitive answer. There is evidence to the contrary on both sides we could potentially go on and on. The only people who have been listed are the only ones in that identity or who have been explicitly stated to be them. That's why we cannot label Hobgoblin and Jack O'Lantern. Or Mysterio, which someone had another seemingly foolproof argument for. ::::::::And I'm not talking about the cybernetics. I mean literally the costume. The black Hobgoblin. That was Macendale's last alias. Not classic orange Hobgoblin. Why would he randomly go back to orange? How does that make any sense more than one of the other Hobgoblins? And it doesn't have to be one of Spider-Man's "enemies". We got the official quote from Conspiracy #4 (which i don't have right now but i'll paraphrase), when Reilly said something like he revived anyone dead from Spidey's life. That includes Daniel Kingsley to a degree. He knew Daniel was the Hobgoblin for a point, even if they never fought. But he was aware that Daniel was one, so it is a possibility. I'm not saying it is, that's just my guess cuz I don't think Macendale fits. But it could be Lefty Donovan, Claude, or anyone who's left. Plus Macendale fits as Jack O'Lantern, he was the original. If we're really returning the villains "to their roots" that would be why Macendale is Jack. I mean it could also be Levins but my point is we don't know for sure. That's why I'm arguing for the possibility of anyone. ::::::::Ben 1,000,911 (talk) 03:12, January 20, 2017 (UTC) :::::::::You're arguing in circles when it comes to Macendale. If Macendale can't be this Hobgoblin because he should be wearing the black Hobgoblin costume, then he also can't be Jack O'Lantern for the same reason. Why would he randomly go back to orange, you ask? Why would he randomly go back to being Jack? Your own argument is internally inconsistent with arguing that Macendale CAN'T be Hobgoblin and CAN be Jack at the same time! :::::::::Your quote from #4 is from after Jackal introduced all the former friends and former enemies together. The relevant quote is from #2, when Jackal first introduced the super-villains alone, including Hobgoblin, and said these are your enemies, Spider-Man. :::::::::Where are you getting "returning villains to their roots" from? Does that actually come from somewhere, or is it just your personal feelings? :::::::::Monolith616 (talk) 14:44, January 20, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::::Sorry, poor choice of words. I meant that Macendale was first the Jack O'Lantern, and the most commonly known Jack O'Lantern. If he were Jack again then that's how Jackal would be approaching some of this. (Jack, Jackal, ha.) Anyway the bottom line, which you seem to not be getting, is that there are still a large amount of possibilities. As long as there is no confirmation on the identity of a character, and more than one possibility exists, that character cannot be labeled. That's it. I've just been playing Devil's advocate this whole time as to how there could be other explanations. The 4 of them (I forgot Tarantula before sorry) cannot be truly confirmed. Your personal theories have no merit. We're done here. ::::::::::Ben 1,000,911 (talk) 21:39, January 20, 2017 (UTC) :::::::::::Yes. We are. I provided an explanation why Macendale and Levins were the only possible choices for Hobgoblin and Jack, respectively, based on the clues and information given in the series. I've given you every opportunity to explain your opinion or contradict my reasoning. You have been unable to do so. Your arguments are circular, contradictory, and based on your own feelings about what Macendale should be, not what's presented on the page. Each of them has been disproven. :::::::::::All you have to fall back on is, "We just don't know for SURE!" True. Jackal could be lying about everything, and all these characters could be Skrulls. So we can't say for SURE that George Stacy, Jean DeWolff, or Ned Leeds are really in these issues either. But all reasonable conclusions say otherwise. My analysis is also the reasonable conclusion, based on possible suspects and the info provided in the series to narrow those suspects down to 1. :::::::::::I will now be editing the issues in question. If you still object, you may request another moderator intervene. :::::::::::Monolith616 (talk) 22:33, January 20, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::::::I talked with ADour about it (here) and he said it was better to wait for the event to end before doing these edits, in case some new hints about or the confirmation of their identities emerge, so I undid your edits Monolith (sorry about that, don't hate me). If their identities aren't revealed by the end of Dead No More, you can undo my undones and, since they are the most probable deceased Hobgoblin and Jack O'Lantern to have been brought back to life, their pages can be edited with the content pertinent to the event. Is that ok for both you? (Please, say yes! Please, say yes!) ::::::::::::--The Many-Angled One (talk) 09:20, January 21, 2017 (UTC) :::::::::::::That seems fair to me. :::::::::::::Monolith616 (talk) 16:19, January 21, 2017 (UTC) Identity Crisis The identities of some of the cloned/resurrected villains of the Clone Conspiracy were revealed at last! YAY! Here are them: * Tarantula: it's Anton Miguel Rodriguez, who once worked with the original Jackal, Miles Warren (I got this one right). Source: Pitted Against the Prowler. * Jack O'Lantern: it's Steven Levins (I got this one wrong). Source: Amazing Spider-Man: Gauntlet Redux. * The Rose: it's Blume, not Richard Fisk (it didn't make sense for the Jackal to bring the Kingpin's son back after he refused to ally Fisk Industries with New U Technologies). Source: Amazing Spider-Man: Gauntlet Redux. * Hobgoblin: not confirmed, but since Levins was revealed to be Jack O'Lantern, I think it's pretty obvious that this is in fact Jason Macendale Jr.. But I think we should wait for the event to end before editing his page and including his appearances on the event's main issues and tie-ins. --The Many-Angled One (talk) 21:14, January 26, 2017 (UTC) ::This means we need to go back and find the issue where someone insists in dialogue that the Rose is Fisk and thus list Richard as a mention. -- Annabell (talk) 23:04, January 26, 2017 (UTC) :::It's already done. It happened in . Peter thought the Rose was Richard Fisk and told the Kingpin his son was back. :::--The Many-Angled One (talk) 23:10, January 26, 2017 (UTC) ::::Good deal, I must have accidentally overlooked that issue when I skimmed his mentions category, 'cause the only recent one I saw was . -- Annabell (talk) 23:23, January 26, 2017 (UTC)